From: redned (Original Message) Sent: 1/13/2005 10:44 PM
I just pulled my motor as the roadster is going in for a panel
& paint job. While I've got some time up my sleeve I thought
I'd do a few things with the motor and as such I pulled the Offy
heads to see how all was going inside. I had noticed when I was
removing the motor that there was some small 'globs' of white
corrosion on the alloy water pumps but nothing prepared me for
the mess in my alloy heads! See attached pix. This motor is basically
fresh and has done very minimal miles (more idling than actual
highway miles) From a clean block I've filled the system with
distilled water and have added Redline Water Wetter (TM) to the
system in the amount suggested by the manufacturer. I have drained
and refilled the system 3 times since firing the motor for various
reasons but have always added distilled water and the Redline
Water Wetter back into the system. Should I be adding something
else to the system - I was of the impression that the Water Wetter
treatment was all I needed? (that's according to the brochure
from memory) Also what's the best agent to use to dissolve or
clean up the corrosion that's there now? The heads are polished
so I'm not real keen to dip them in something that's going to
wreck the finish. Just when one thinks all is going well, something
like this crops up!
Redned
From: Doby1688 Sent: 1/14/2005 7:37 AM
I also highly recommend the No-Rosion products. I use the Hyper-Cool
and it has completely stopped the electrolysis in my cooling system.
Thanks, Rodnut, for turning me on to it! Being a belt and suspenders
guy I also added a radiator cap with a sacrificial anode built
in. Before these 2 changes I measured about 2v wandering around
in the system and had visible external corrosion, mostly where
the water pumps meet the block. Now I measure about .01v and the
corrosion build-up has stopped. The radiator cap is available
from www.radcapproducts.com. Cheap insurance for those of us who
use only water in our systems for the superior heat exchange properties.
From: BILLY Sent: 1/14/2005 8:42 AM
I have been using Red Line sence 1995 and have had no problems.
Use with distilled water. Just my two cents,
BILLY
Web site http://www.redlineoil.com/products_coolant.asp
From: stank Sent: 1/14/2005 11:36 AM
I would suggest an anode. A sacrificial bit of metal that attracts
all of "oxidizers" in your cooling system. We used to
use them in marine applications. Check the McMaster Carr catalog
#110 P. 2108.
From: mr bill Sent: 1/14/2005 2:10 PM
Since you are not using antifreeze you should be adding something
like "Gunk Radiator Anti-Rust With Water Pump Lube".
This additive contains Napthenic Oil that coats the inside of
the water passages to prevent corroision. Antifreeze comes with
some type of corrosion preventitive in it already. I just changed
antifreeze ( I use proplyene glyco sp?) in my flathead. It has
been in the motor for 4 years and the inside of the Offy heads
looked just like new. I also use Water Wetter. If the deposits
in your heads are soft you could try vinegar to disolve it before
you use something stronger.
From: Flatiron Sent: 1/14/2005 5:03 PM
Anybody using the Hypercool with the 15% antifreeze that No-Rosion
recommends for street engines? Specifically, with propylene glycol
rather than ethylene glycol?
Thanks, ---Flatiron
From: rodnut1 Sent: 1/14/2005 6:03 PM
Yes, I do- in my '39 (stock 'open' cooling system) as well as
my '65 Plymouth (15#). Years ago (1986?) I built a A coupe with
Early Chrysler Hemi. I ran propylene glycol in that car well before
it was 'marketed' as anti-freeze. I'd buy it in 5 gal pails at
the oil distributors. I was running it 100% (no water) at atmospheric
pressure. I used powdered inhibitors (most are now outlawed) that
we used in marine cooling sytems in order to avoid any water contamination.
Also used a dryer at the vent line. Worked great for years! The
motor ran 180F all the time, but at 100% it could have gone to
well over 300F and still not boil. It was overkill for what I
was doing, but interesting..
From: Flatiron Sent: 1/14/2005 7:40 PM
Thanks Rodnut-
Sounds like just the ticket for hot Southern Summers. I generally
don't have major problems with cooling- but 100 degree days don't
leave a lot of room to go up. For clearance I had to use an electric
fan- would be better if it ran less.
best, Ed
From: 29AV8 Sent: 1/14/2005 7:46 PM
From our experience with Rover aluminum engines, the service manual
says to change the coolant yearly. This isn't because it loses
it's properties, it's due to ph factor. Just like a fish tank,
you can check ph with a test kit. We use Red Line Water Wetter
as well, and it does have corrosion inhibitors for aluminum, says
right on the bottle. It also says 'change fluid annually for best
protection', right on the bottle.
Remember, it won't just be in the engine, your radiator will be
clogged with it too. Calcification can clog up a rad real good.
That's one reason I'm using NPG+.
29AV8
From: 29AV8 Sent: 1/14/2005 7:49 PM
Redned: didn't mean to say that you hadn't changed the fluid enough.
The impression I got is that the engine hasn't been together for
a year yet, is that the case? That would be amazing. That's the
kind of corrosion you'd expect from a motor that sits a lot of
the time, over a long period of time. Maybe something in the block
prep that reacted?
29AV8
From: redned Sent: 1/14/2005 11:10 PM
Tks for all the good info on the corrosion problem. All replies
have been noted and are good suggestions, I'll definately be following
up on the products and ideas put forward by everyone.
This morning I took the heads to the local radiator guru but unfortunately
being a Sat morning his younger staff were there and said they
had nothing that could remove the corrosion without damaging the
polished surface. He suggested I re-assemble the motor and then
fill the whole system with a flushing agent. I then went to the
local speed shop and found a product on the shelf called 'BRUTE'
aluminum cleaner the active ingredient being Sodium Hydroxide.
It was cheap enough so thought I'd try it out. I blocked off the
radiatior hose & heater hose connections and sat the head
upside down and level over a large plastic container. Using a
funnel I filled the water jacket of the head with a 50/50 solution
of the BRUTE, letting it sit for about 20 minutes and then flushed
it out with clean water. It did the job well and the heads are
now nice and clean again. I'll repeat the process with the alloy
water pumps and then when it's all back together in the car I'll
flush the whole system through to remove any loose bits. Might
invest in one of those nifty little cooling system filters as
well?
I've re-read the brochure from Redline and it definately gives
one the impression that you can run with redline treatment only
and as suggested by one of the replies at least one of our group
has been running with it solely for 4 years without incident.
Of course the brochure is written by a lawyer and there are many
disclaimers and contradictions throughout it? I actually got on
to the product via this forum. I am very partyicular about quantities
and made sure I put in the correct amount. Like I said in my original
post I'd actually drained and refilled the system 3 times. Once
when I pulled the motor and again about 2 months ago when I put
a new set of Mike Davidson's alluminium water pumps on (nice pumps
by the way!) On all occasions I used distilled water and a new
lot of Water Wetter.
Yes AV8 you are correct, The motor has only been re-built for
a bit over 12 months and has only been driven for testing purposes.
It would have only done 30 or 40 miles if that? I was amazed at
the amount of corrosion given the short time and that is why I
made the post to this forum. Doby may have hit it on the head
as a stray current problem? Spending many years working with electronics
I'm well aware of the problem but unfortunately I didn't take
any measurements before the car was dismantled. Stray Current
can and does move very quickly if the problem exsists. I do know
the electrical system is very well earthed even to the point that
I ran seperate earths to all the lights and other accessories
as well as short, heavy, direct connecting cables to the body/chassis.
I'll take some measurements when the car is all back together,
which won't be for about 2 to 3 months. The sacraficial anode
in the cap is good insurance so will look into that as well.
Ok on the No-Rosion - I'm not sure if No-Rosion is available here
in Oz but will try to source it or use a similar type product.
I've never had an overheating problem with the motor - it will
sit on 180 degrees all day (electric fan) so will see wether I
put the Redline treatment back in or not. One thing is for sure
I won't be running it with only the Redline on it's own again?
(that's not to say you can't but the whole things sort of left
a nasty taste in my mouth and I wouldn't be game to do it again!)
Thanks again to all who replied, many minds make light work of
such problems.
Cheers Redned
From: Mike_Modified Sent: 1/14/2005 11:48 PM
Redned:
Do you blokes have anything like the American "Environmental
Protection Agency"?
I'm not a fan of government, but I'd question the legitimacy of
the "distilled water" that you used.
Mike
From: redned Sent: 1/15/2005 4:28 AM
Oh yes we have the EPA here - don't fart or they'll cite you!
I purchased the first lot of distilled water and then started
to catch the water in a plastic sheet when it rained (a rare occurance
here in West Oz!) Maybe it's a case of Acid Rain !!
Redned
From: Doby1688 Sent: 1/15/2005 7:51 AM
Redned,
As far as I know No-Rosion products are only available from the
manufacturer, Applied Chemical Specialties. You can order from
their website, a search for "No-Rosion" should pull
it up. They also have a toll free phone number, (800) 845-8523,
but it probably won't be toll free from Oz.
All cooling systems have a certain level of electrolysis due to
dissimilar metals reacting with each other in the presence of
whatever chemicals may be in there, including water. Distilled
water (and maybe rain water) may actually increase the level of
reactivity because it has no minerals of its own. It tries to
"pull" minerals from the surrounding metals. This activity
can be seen as voltage with a digital volt-ohm meter. I don't
know what an acceptable upper limit would be, but the No-Rosion
and sacrficial anode definitely cut it down to essentially zero
in my cooling system.
From: AlbuqF-1 Sent: 1/15/2005 9:51 AM
I've wondered about using "triple-distilled" water myself,
Doby; usually I'd welcome a little agressiveness (to help clean
things up). Lately I have been using Reverse Osmosis water for
this reason. It is available for drinking and use in irons, humidifiers,
etc. It has very low mineral content, way lower than we need for
engine systems, but is not as agressive as distilled or ion exchange
treated water. It is also about a 50 cents a gallon compared to
$1 a gallon for distilled, if you find a place that will sell
it to you in your own container (believe it or not, WalMart here
has a dispenser!). I take my old antifreeze jugs there to fill
halfway, then fill the remaining with fresh antifreeze.
I think if this were electrolysis, the corrosion would be limited to the surfaces in contact (surface of the head, places where bolts go thru).
Ross
From: rodnut1 Sent: 1/15/2005 12:37 PM
Dobi is right about distilled water. You absolutely need to use
a high quality inhibitor with it, or it will soon destroy the
metals in the cooling system. I also add at least 25% more than
is recommended when using distilled water, just to be safe. As
for triple distilled, I don't think that's really necessary. Drinking
distilled, or mineral free water of any sort? I wouldn't recommend
it. Your body needs minerals to function, and this type of 'pure'
water can do the same thing to your body- leach out and hold the
minerals until you piss them out. Not a good thing..