From: redned (Original Message) Sent: 1/13/2005 10:44 PM
I just pulled my motor as the roadster is going in for a panel & paint job. While I've got some time up my sleeve I thought I'd do a few things with the motor and as such I pulled the Offy heads to see how all was going inside. I had noticed when I was removing the motor that there was some small 'globs' of white corrosion on the alloy water pumps but nothing prepared me for the mess in my alloy heads! See attached pix. This motor is basically fresh and has done very minimal miles (more idling than actual highway miles) From a clean block I've filled the system with distilled water and have added Redline Water Wetter (TM) to the system in the amount suggested by the manufacturer. I have drained and refilled the system 3 times since firing the motor for various reasons but have always added distilled water and the Redline Water Wetter back into the system. Should I be adding something else to the system - I was of the impression that the Water Wetter treatment was all I needed? (that's according to the brochure from memory) Also what's the best agent to use to dissolve or clean up the corrosion that's there now? The heads are polished so I'm not real keen to dip them in something that's going to wreck the finish. Just when one thinks all is going well, something like this crops up!
From: Doby1688 Sent: 1/14/2005 7:37 AM
I also highly recommend the No-Rosion products. I use the Hyper-Cool and it has completely stopped the electrolysis in my cooling system. Thanks, Rodnut, for turning me on to it! Being a belt and suspenders guy I also added a radiator cap with a sacrificial anode built in. Before these 2 changes I measured about 2v wandering around in the system and had visible external corrosion, mostly where the water pumps meet the block. Now I measure about .01v and the corrosion build-up has stopped. The radiator cap is available from www.radcapproducts.com. Cheap insurance for those of us who use only water in our systems for the superior heat exchange properties.
From: BILLY Sent: 1/14/2005 8:42 AM
I have been using Red Line sence 1995 and have had no problems. Use with distilled water. Just my two cents,
Web site http://www.redlineoil.com/products_coolant.asp
From: stank Sent: 1/14/2005 11:36 AM
I would suggest an anode. A sacrificial bit of metal that attracts all of "oxidizers" in your cooling system. We used to use them in marine applications. Check the McMaster Carr catalog #110 P. 2108.
From: mr bill Sent: 1/14/2005 2:10 PM
Since you are not using antifreeze you should be adding something like "Gunk Radiator Anti-Rust With Water Pump Lube". This additive contains Napthenic Oil that coats the inside of the water passages to prevent corroision. Antifreeze comes with some type of corrosion preventitive in it already. I just changed antifreeze ( I use proplyene glyco sp?) in my flathead. It has been in the motor for 4 years and the inside of the Offy heads looked just like new. I also use Water Wetter. If the deposits in your heads are soft you could try vinegar to disolve it before you use something stronger.
From: Flatiron Sent: 1/14/2005 5:03 PM
Anybody using the Hypercool with the 15% antifreeze that No-Rosion recommends for street engines? Specifically, with propylene glycol rather than ethylene glycol?
From: rodnut1 Sent: 1/14/2005 6:03 PM
Yes, I do- in my '39 (stock 'open' cooling system) as well as my '65 Plymouth (15#). Years ago (1986?) I built a A coupe with Early Chrysler Hemi. I ran propylene glycol in that car well before it was 'marketed' as anti-freeze. I'd buy it in 5 gal pails at the oil distributors. I was running it 100% (no water) at atmospheric pressure. I used powdered inhibitors (most are now outlawed) that we used in marine cooling sytems in order to avoid any water contamination. Also used a dryer at the vent line. Worked great for years! The motor ran 180F all the time, but at 100% it could have gone to well over 300F and still not boil. It was overkill for what I was doing, but interesting..
From: Flatiron Sent: 1/14/2005 7:40 PM
Sounds like just the ticket for hot Southern Summers. I generally don't have major problems with cooling- but 100 degree days don't leave a lot of room to go up. For clearance I had to use an electric fan- would be better if it ran less.
From: 29AV8 Sent: 1/14/2005 7:46 PM
From our experience with Rover aluminum engines, the service manual says to change the coolant yearly. This isn't because it loses it's properties, it's due to ph factor. Just like a fish tank, you can check ph with a test kit. We use Red Line Water Wetter as well, and it does have corrosion inhibitors for aluminum, says right on the bottle. It also says 'change fluid annually for best protection', right on the bottle.
Remember, it won't just be in the engine, your radiator will be clogged with it too. Calcification can clog up a rad real good.
That's one reason I'm using NPG+.
From: 29AV8 Sent: 1/14/2005 7:49 PM
Redned: didn't mean to say that you hadn't changed the fluid enough. The impression I got is that the engine hasn't been together for a year yet, is that the case? That would be amazing. That's the kind of corrosion you'd expect from a motor that sits a lot of the time, over a long period of time. Maybe something in the block prep that reacted?
From: redned Sent: 1/14/2005 11:10 PM
Tks for all the good info on the corrosion problem. All replies have been noted and are good suggestions, I'll definately be following up on the products and ideas put forward by everyone.
This morning I took the heads to the local radiator guru but unfortunately being a Sat morning his younger staff were there and said they had nothing that could remove the corrosion without damaging the polished surface. He suggested I re-assemble the motor and then fill the whole system with a flushing agent. I then went to the local speed shop and found a product on the shelf called 'BRUTE' aluminum cleaner the active ingredient being Sodium Hydroxide. It was cheap enough so thought I'd try it out. I blocked off the radiatior hose & heater hose connections and sat the head upside down and level over a large plastic container. Using a funnel I filled the water jacket of the head with a 50/50 solution of the BRUTE, letting it sit for about 20 minutes and then flushed it out with clean water. It did the job well and the heads are now nice and clean again. I'll repeat the process with the alloy water pumps and then when it's all back together in the car I'll flush the whole system through to remove any loose bits. Might invest in one of those nifty little cooling system filters as well?
I've re-read the brochure from Redline and it definately gives one the impression that you can run with redline treatment only and as suggested by one of the replies at least one of our group has been running with it solely for 4 years without incident. Of course the brochure is written by a lawyer and there are many disclaimers and contradictions throughout it? I actually got on to the product via this forum. I am very partyicular about quantities and made sure I put in the correct amount. Like I said in my original post I'd actually drained and refilled the system 3 times. Once when I pulled the motor and again about 2 months ago when I put a new set of Mike Davidson's alluminium water pumps on (nice pumps by the way!) On all occasions I used distilled water and a new lot of Water Wetter.
Yes AV8 you are correct, The motor has only been re-built for a bit over 12 months and has only been driven for testing purposes. It would have only done 30 or 40 miles if that? I was amazed at the amount of corrosion given the short time and that is why I made the post to this forum. Doby may have hit it on the head as a stray current problem? Spending many years working with electronics I'm well aware of the problem but unfortunately I didn't take any measurements before the car was dismantled. Stray Current can and does move very quickly if the problem exsists. I do know the electrical system is very well earthed even to the point that I ran seperate earths to all the lights and other accessories as well as short, heavy, direct connecting cables to the body/chassis. I'll take some measurements when the car is all back together, which won't be for about 2 to 3 months. The sacraficial anode in the cap is good insurance so will look into that as well.
Ok on the No-Rosion - I'm not sure if No-Rosion is available here in Oz but will try to source it or use a similar type product. I've never had an overheating problem with the motor - it will sit on 180 degrees all day (electric fan) so will see wether I put the Redline treatment back in or not. One thing is for sure I won't be running it with only the Redline on it's own again? (that's not to say you can't but the whole things sort of left a nasty taste in my mouth and I wouldn't be game to do it again!)
Thanks again to all who replied, many minds make light work of such problems.
From: Mike_Modified Sent: 1/14/2005 11:48 PM
Do you blokes have anything like the American "Environmental Protection Agency"?
I'm not a fan of government, but I'd question the legitimacy of the "distilled water" that you used.
From: redned Sent: 1/15/2005 4:28 AM
Oh yes we have the EPA here - don't fart or they'll cite you!
I purchased the first lot of distilled water and then started to catch the water in a plastic sheet when it rained (a rare occurance here in West Oz!) Maybe it's a case of Acid Rain !!
From: Doby1688 Sent: 1/15/2005 7:51 AM
As far as I know No-Rosion products are only available from the manufacturer, Applied Chemical Specialties. You can order from their website, a search for "No-Rosion" should pull it up. They also have a toll free phone number, (800) 845-8523, but it probably won't be toll free from Oz.
All cooling systems have a certain level of electrolysis due to dissimilar metals reacting with each other in the presence of whatever chemicals may be in there, including water. Distilled water (and maybe rain water) may actually increase the level of reactivity because it has no minerals of its own. It tries to "pull" minerals from the surrounding metals. This activity can be seen as voltage with a digital volt-ohm meter. I don't know what an acceptable upper limit would be, but the No-Rosion and sacrficial anode definitely cut it down to essentially zero in my cooling system.
From: AlbuqF-1 Sent: 1/15/2005 9:51 AM
I've wondered about using "triple-distilled" water myself, Doby; usually I'd welcome a little agressiveness (to help clean things up). Lately I have been using Reverse Osmosis water for this reason. It is available for drinking and use in irons, humidifiers, etc. It has very low mineral content, way lower than we need for engine systems, but is not as agressive as distilled or ion exchange treated water. It is also about a 50 cents a gallon compared to $1 a gallon for distilled, if you find a place that will sell it to you in your own container (believe it or not, WalMart here has a dispenser!). I take my old antifreeze jugs there to fill halfway, then fill the remaining with fresh antifreeze.
I think if this were electrolysis, the corrosion would be limited to the surfaces in contact (surface of the head, places where bolts go thru).
From: rodnut1 Sent: 1/15/2005 12:37 PM
Dobi is right about distilled water. You absolutely need to use a high quality inhibitor with it, or it will soon destroy the metals in the cooling system. I also add at least 25% more than is recommended when using distilled water, just to be safe. As for triple distilled, I don't think that's really necessary. Drinking distilled, or mineral free water of any sort? I wouldn't recommend it. Your body needs minerals to function, and this type of 'pure' water can do the same thing to your body- leach out and hold the minerals until you piss them out. Not a good thing..